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First impression: Not a Godgame

Rascull

New member
Hi @ all,

i really like the complexity of Reus, i think i have over 100 hours on this game. I consider myself a bit a of a fanboi of yours, thats why i try to be as straight forward to you as possible:

I really think Godhood isn't a godgame.. yes theres a god, and a religion, and discples and miracles and sacraments... but as far as i can tell every single on of those systems is only to make your disciples better....

you do a sacrament -> your diciples get a level -> you build a miracle -> you send diciple to new building -> disciple gains power -> repeat with harder sacrament

it feels like the systems are just mainly focussed around getting better diciples. in reus u got ambassadors and your giants got stronger... but then u had a much deeper complexity what u build with your giants... in godhood its just about composition of strong diciples in rock paper scisor style, there is no deeper complexity... or i just missed it?

all so far, all of the buildings directly makes diciples more powerful... and the sacrifice / fanatics building are coins to upgrade the buildings taht makes diciples better... thats sooo simple.. where is the complexity...

the more wins in sacraments u perform, the bigger gets your town and religion, but its meaningless... u cant interact with your town.. u can perform 3 moves per turn, and thats the disciples, not the townsfolk.

so far this game is centered around the ideal to make a godlike diciple, thats it.

no crtic without saying something good:
the music and the artstyle are very immersive and very beatuiful.
again, sorry for the hard words, i mean it well. i hope u guys can add more god-stuff
 

RickSo

Abbey Games Developer
Developer
Abbey Games Developer
Thanks for the well-considered criticism Rascull!

We always wanted Godhood to be less about being an all-powerful force of nature, and more about being a presence that influences and guides a religion. Because of that, we decided to personify your religion through the disciples. It was a natural fit to focus the game on roster management and disciple upgrading.
Please know, however, that we definitely want upgrading your disciples and the rock-paper-scissors combat more nuanced and interesting.

I'd love to hear your ideas on things you'd like to see included in that fantasy. We'll never put in terraforming or anything like that, as the game is more intimate in scale, but I'm curious to hear your other ideas.
Thanks!
 

Rascull

New member
Ok, so u want that my/the presence influences and guides my/the religion. at the moment i (the god) guide my disciples towards work, and to sacraments. my guidance is always centered around diciples, thats it... its like not quite much guidance right?
what about burning some bush, and my diciples interact with that happening in some way to "manipulate" or "expan" or "extend" the religion... some religion happenings u know, that affect the townsfolk, the diciples and the religion in one way or another
what about this kind of guidance: theres a problem within my town, some family stole crops from some other family, and my influence let the stolen crops grow back, or let the stolen crops rot, and my disciples see that as sign of godhood and that affects everything.

if u want to center the game around the diciples, then pls let us more stuff do with them! the sacrifice/fanatic/beliefer - grind could come right out of a mobile game. send them in, click turn, get stuff, spend stuff, repeat.

u want us to guide a religion, and influence it. so pls let us influence it. i want to give my disciples, or townsfolk visions, and have passive impact.
u want godhood not to be a all-powerful force, i really understand that! there are games for that, yes. but its a lie! we force our diciples to do stuff for us, that is the truth, and if we can force them to work, why cant i force them to have a vision, that they grow a cool looking pond, or forest, where they can do stuff, and see that as religious happening that manipulate the religion, where they learn and experience some other stuff
 

Rascull

New member
i replayed it now, but i dont know exactly why i replayed it... after 1 hour of re-playing it i got soo bored, that i just skipped the other island with the 2 skyshared and went as fast as possible for the endboss-fight, which i facerolled with a team that was lvl 4 4 and 3... max level is 5.

it becomes pretty clear to me, that the only god-like decision u do whole game is choosing a religion that equals to getting a buff. thats it.

i went with war this time. my goal was to get 6 diciples, 3x warchief and 3x beastmaster, so that i can use the one 3er group against the counter of my first. both teams run with the war-buff pretty well, and i only need a farm (might) and hunter (cunning), thats about the strategic depth of the game. ohh i forgot! keep them happy to get better miracles. i translate miracles for you: its just another buff. wait there is more strategic!!!!!!! use the temple of whatever religion u chose. coz it gives you A BETTER BUFF (miracle) for your pokemons.

i hope u guys dont lose your spirits on the harsh critique u are getting lately. the abbey-fanbois including me, know that you can do better, and i hope u know that too. stick to the processes and thoughts that made reus a great game, and what i hear renowned explorers. and pls throw away the thoughts that this could be a mobile game, its clear u want it to be a mobile game. pls no mobile game!
 

Nabu93

New member
Agree with Rascull. The game is focused on getting more powerful followers, and not on the development of a cult. A cult has no uniqueness, no unique strategy. I think it would be more logical if the properties of a cult would consist of two components: from the nature of God (light, darkness, neutrality) and cult dogmas. The nature of God does not change, but the set of dogmas can be developed by theologians; of course, new dogmas should not contradict the main idea of the cult. And now the sum of these components (God nature and dogmas) should create passive skills and abilities of followers.
Cults fight first of all with their ideas! Fear of God (Judaism) vs Love (Christianity), Nirvana (Buddhism) vs Absolute (Hinduism).
 
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Tygoth

Member
This is an interesting (and highly relevant) discussion, I reckon.
How would these ideas best be presented and gamified?

The basic setting ofthis game seems right. You are a made up god from a forgotten panteon of Central Americanesque gods, fighting in a pre-gunpowder age. Realistic enough to be recognizable but fantastical enough to not be too easily offended by.
That the spreading of your religion happens at sword point, or at least by an angry mob forcing several key figures to fight it out in the name of lust, chastity, or some other virtue, seems historical enough as well by the way. :/

Note: you are a worshipped god yourself. Not a ruler who uses religion. Not an allmighty god ruling a whole planet.
Just one of the gods around, trying to gain a proper following.
This might be the pivotal distinction between this and other god games.
Abbey Games want you to try and inspire, to guide and to shape a religion.

That the game feels too easy at the moment might be true.
You can recognize the systems already in place that could change that though.
You can gain a new ability for your disciple to use in battle, but because of a RNG it might not be used.
Your disciple might seem happy enough, but once you send him to collect resources, he might refuse you because of a RNG.
If a disciple's faith is low enough, you get three changes to fix that before he leaves your religion.
They'll have personal requests to boast their faith as well though.
Again, all this needs to be tweaked, as everyone feels at the moment it is just good-better-best without any real throwbacks.
The use of a RNG however, picking from a list of options you can interfere with, seems a good basic principle for players to 'influence, but not directly control.'

Telling your disciples exactly what to do and where and when to do it in the village screen does not seem like something a god would be occupied with.
Nor can it be discribed as merely influencing.
So instead of giving players MORE control, I would recommend giving us LESS control.
With random buildings being built, for example. More system initiative, less player control would make for a more interesting game, I think.
Just do add some godpowers in the sacraments ánd in the village please. ;)
 
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Rascull

New member
i dont know if i agree on your statement, tygoth.

you know black and white 1? it was an amazing game. but why? because of the city bulding? no that was trivial. because u got ACTIVE with your pet! you know why black and white 2 was a shitty game? coz they stripped all of the activeness away from the interaction with you pet, down to just telling your pet to be friendly by switching a bar to 100% friendly.

what im trying to say is: i think passiveness is disruptive to any game, unless it is handled in pure greatness. see dota auto chess.... the fights are purely passive, but the active manouvering and depth lies in between each rounds. in that case its a bit similar to what godhood is now... be active between sacraments, and see what happens in those fights (passive)

nobody wants to play a game that plays itself
 

Tygoth

Member
I think we agree on quite a lot @Rascull (though even if we didn't that'd be ok).

Like, Black and White was amazing and it's sequel, though better looking, quite boring to play.

And neither of us seems to want a game that is too passive (see for example this earlier reply by me, warning for Godhood to become an idle game with the automation of parts).

With it's automated battles, there should be some interesting choices left to be made in between those battles. Those should not only give the player the impression they have godlike abilities, but also that the player is helping guide and shape an entire religion.

I do feel that giving control over each little detail to the players is not the solution to this. But could be very wrong about this.
To me, that would feel much more like Black and White 2.
The joy of exploring what your creature wanted, how you could reward it to do what you wanted and to find out its possibilities, was all gone there.
Let's try and not make that happen to Godhood.

That is why I have recently suggested a couple of changes. For example, when leveling up as a god, give us experience points and let us pick what to spend it on. Or when we inspire a disciple to build a new building, let the kind of building be randomly picked from the available buildings and let us destroy the building if it is not what we were looking for. Or have buildings fulfill a certain need followers might have, so that we might have to strategicly choose sometimes between the needs of our followers (and the consequences for forsaking those) and the training of our disciples.
I feel all those would be examples of giving us interesting choices in between the autobattles.

Again -just trying to explain my viewpoint, certainly not saying it is the only correct way to views things.
Would love to hear examples of how a more hands on controlled style of godhood could work as well!
 

Nabu93

New member
Tygoth, in the current version of the game RND is terrible.
A description of many classes of disciples says that some characteristics are important to them, but the initial set of active abilities depends on other characteristics. For example, the Ascetic class description says: "Devotion and Health are important for an Ascetic." However, the abilities in a set of active abilities depend on the charisma. A disciple can get new abilities only when upgrading, but when will it be? !! Even if he has one or two abilities depending on Devotion and Health, what is the likelihood that these abilities will work in battle? Only 1/5 or 2/5. Conclusion: you need to increase the charisma, and not what is written in the description.
 

Tygoth

Member
Hi @Nabu93 I immediately believe that what you describe is currently the case (and that it should be fixed before the game goes gold).I fail to see how this fact is in any way an argument in the discussion about criticizing godhood as a godgame right now and suggesting how it could be improved. Could you help me out there?
 

Nabu93

New member
Let's think about what indirect control is? Indirect control is a situation in which we cannot direct a process ourselves, but can only change some parameters that will affect this process. However, with the current mechanics of the game there are no processes other than combat! I believe that RND in combat is not the best way to implement the idea of indirect control. It seems to me that it is necessary to introduce elements of strategic games so that there are more passive processes in the game.

Consider, for example, an increase in the number of followers. Let in each captured city the number of followers grows on its own turn. Cults should be able to accept dogmas that can change the strategy of this increase.

If my cult is based on the idea of control or election, I don’t want to accept anyone as a follower, I want to select only those who are worthy. In this case, the rate of growth ("recruitment") of followers in cities slows down, but in return, the probability of getting fighters with more useful or rare properties increases. The cult relies on the quality of followers, not on their number.

Another cult may decide that he will defeat the enemy by number. Such a cult can adopt a dogma that will increase the rate of growth of followers in cities, but will reduce the likelihood of hiring fighters with useful or rare properties. This cult accepts sinners. 😃

But then you need to enter different types of victory in the game. Option one - you need to capture all the cities (strategy for the cult that recruits stronger fighters). Option two - you need to get a certain number of followers (strategy for the peacefull cult).
 

Rascull

New member
@Nabu93: still dont get it. there are other processes in current-godhood other than sacraments. i think u meant indirect-controll-mechanics?
RNG already has nothing to do with the indirect controls of godhod. thats 2 diffrent pair of shoes. the sacraments in itself are random. the indirect controll does not lie in combat, but in team-composition. thats offtopic to this thread im afraid. yes u can argue that choosing the party is not much of a gods task...
 

Nabu93

New member
To be honest, I lost the thread of the conversation, so I will return to the main topic.
Unlike people, gods do not live in the material world; they operate in a spiritual space. Gods do not build cities (let's not turn the game into a city-building game), gods build ideas, and then spread these ideas in people's minds and hearts.
In this regard, I propose the following concept, what do you think about this?
  1. The game takes place on a map with several nodes: large cities and small villages. In each settlement lives a certain number of people. The number of people in settlements does not change.
  2. Each settlement lives its own life. Residents of different settlements have different needs, values and worldview.
  3. No settlement belongs to God, there is only a certain number of followers and the influence of God in each settlement. The task of God is to convert into his faith a critically significant share of the population of the map, for example, 75%.
  4. The influence of God in the settlements spreads passively, turn by turn, and actively through the sacraments. The greater the coincidence of the dogmas of the divine cult with local convictions, the more successful the passive spread of influence in the settlement. Over time, some local beliefs may change or be supplemented by the tenets of the cult.
  5. Other gods, the competitors of the player, solve a similar problem. All gods are fighting for one population. The distribution of this population between different cults varies from turn to turn.
  6. Sometimes in the settlements there are various events: diseases, crop failures, natural disasters, or there are everyday needs that depend on the specialization of the settlement. God may try to solve these problems using his divine powers and disciples. If he succeeds, his influence in the settlement will increase. If the requests of the population are not satisfied, the influence of God in the settlement will decrease.
  7. The population always turns for help to the god who has the greatest influence in the settlement. Gods-competitors, whose influence in the settlement is less, can provoke the occurrence of events using their divine powers.
 
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Blackvision

Well-known member
Kickstarter Backer Community Member for 2 years
I like the ideas you're thinking through and the depth of simulation for religions and their influences you're suggesting, though I fear it makes for a dull game of grindy repetitive actions - if there's no final 'you get the population!' point, it becomes a war of attrition even over places you've already won over, and given that the computer gods have infinite patience, that's not a fun game by itself. I point out Black and White as a prime example here - a game with a lot of finesse and strategy devolved rapidly into which god can hurl boulders/fireballs better (or heal villagers faster) until you take/lose the village when you got into god vs god conflicts.

For another example, the religious/influence spread in games like the Total War franchise - it makes for an excellent background to the overlying strategy game, but if you're just dealing with the flow of influence alone, it rapidly becomes incredibly uninteresting, and the work required to maintain and encourage an engaging plot/story throughout is a bit of a nightmare: it's a great simulation of ideas/religion spreading, but not such a good game to play.

I do like the link between events and god-actions you're talking about though - perhaps the existing miracle system can be adapted to suit: some dire event happens and a disciple there may be able to turn the tide and do something spectacular to deal with it: that's how the storylets play out currently, just there's no impending threat of the danger except implied by the storylet - it'd be nice to see something like a higher chance of a great/terrible miracle effect if you know something's coming that they can intervene with (and perhaps an impact beyond just that disciple!).

I'd also hasten to add that thinking these kind of ideas over is an excellent idea - it keeps the concepts and challenges religions face in the mind, but I wouldn't take it as a template without doctoring to suit the medium first.
 

Rascull

New member
@Nabu93 :
the first thing that come to my mind after reading your post, is black and white 1 ^^ most of the mechanics u descripe fit perfect in black and white^^

to be honest, i dont want 200 hour long matches like in age of wonders, where u kill a base, and lose anther at the other end of the map.
a little city building part would be nice.
 
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