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Initial Miracle Buildings

Reiteration6

New member
I don't mean to sound unappreciative, especially given the recent change allowing repeat miracles again, which was very much appreciated... but not having access to all the miracles from the start is really inconvenient and limiting... and to be honest, the choices of which buildings should be included for each commandment feel a bit off to me.

I've been playing (yet another) Chastity game today, and I just don't get why - when the prophet themselves is an Ascetic - you'd choose not to include a miracle building which raises Health in the starting set. The Herder's Hut at least would be nice to have (so long as it wasn't replacing the Devotion building), but it would be ideal to get the Tavern.

Actually, "ideal" would be to get all of the miracle buildings, but getting ones that at least correspond to the commandment-specific classes (Ambassador, Ascetic, Executioner & Lust Priest) when selecting their respective commandments would be the next best thing.




P.S. I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but mentioning miracle buildings reminded me of this:
I'm sure I've seen someone (Blackvision, I think) mentioning somewhere that there's a way of getting the skill stone things from the Market, but can someone tell me how? Because I'm not having any luck figuring it out myself. I'd thought maybe a wondrous miracle would give one, but all I ever seem to get from those is 10 ritual offerings.
 

RVWinkle

New member
Kickstarter Backer - Elder
Hey Reiteration6, I think I was the one who mentioned the market miracle. I have been trying to find a pattern but I'm not sure what it is. Sometimes when you earn a miracle you have the option to chose between materials, sacraments, or a sun stone. Other times you just get sacraments. I know last night after the Will of the People update I only got sacraments 2 times in a row but a few days ago in the beta I got two sun stones in a row. I'm not sure if it's random luck or maybe patched out but I'll post a screenshot the next time I run into it.
 

Blackvision

Well-known member
Kickstarter Backer Community Member for 2 years
It's not random. It's only on a Wondrous one, and you only get the choice if you have Offerings - you either get +10 Offerings and the better miracle OR pay offerings, get a sunstone and get an inferior miracle.

They might've listened to me and patched it out, though the new 'Sunstone' 0/30 on the sacrament resources (which never rises) suggests that they plan on having some way to get them yourself too.
 

Rutger

Abbey Games Developer
Developer
It's definitely one of those things that's still on the table. Do you think this might be alleviated if the breadth of miracle options was extended in general (while still locking certain miracles to certain commandments)?
 

Blackvision

Well-known member
Kickstarter Backer Community Member for 2 years
I just wouldn't want to tie such a vital thing to one miracle is all. I'm fine with having a building that can produce them, but tying it to a miracle specifically instantly makes having that miracle completely vital to every strategy that wants an easy win. Granted, the higher level skills still need balancing (woe betide us when the AI gets disciples with them :s ) but even so, tying it (or in-fact, any resources that you can't easily obtain elsewhere) to a wondrous miracle screws up the strategic balance of options.

If you wanted to preserve a degree of randomness or luck to it (which miracles don't, btw, with the current faith system for them), you could just make it a chance thing on the Sunstone district - a chance that it doesn't use up the sunstone so you get another use out of it, or the like.

Main thing before making those kind of decisions is whether you're making them a limited resource with only a few available or giving everyone the option of decking people out with extremely potent skills. Personally, I'd lean towards the former and remove any options of generating them beyond what the map offers (though I'd damn well want to be able to get them back when retiring old disciples!) or if the later, will need to heavily tweak and balance the skills so that the higher level ones aren't so insanely powerful when you can guarantee them.
 

Reiteration6

New member
Do you think this might be alleviated if the breadth of miracle options was extended in general (while still locking certain miracles to certain commandments)?
If there were three more buildings like the Tavern, each of which focused on the primary stats of a particular commandment-specific class, then as long as that class' commandment had access to that building from the start then I think it could work.

As for the sunstone thing, I agree with Blackvision that tying their production to a specific miracle building isn't ideal, as it forces people to use that miracle if they want decent skills.
 

klimbo

New member
I just wouldn't want to tie such a vital thing to one miracle is all. I'm fine with having a building that can produce them, but tying it to a miracle specifically instantly makes having that miracle completely vital to every strategy that wants an easy win. Granted, the higher level skills still need balancing (woe betide us when the AI gets disciples with them :s ) but even so, tying it (or in-fact, any resources that you can't easily obtain elsewhere) to a wondrous miracle screws up the strategic balance of options.

If you wanted to preserve a degree of randomness or luck to it (which miracles don't, btw, with the current faith system for them), you could just make it a chance thing on the Sunstone district - a chance that it doesn't use up the sunstone so you get another use out of it, or the like.

Main thing before making those kind of decisions is whether you're making them a limited resource with only a few available or giving everyone the option of decking people out with extremely potent skills. Personally, I'd lean towards the former and remove any options of generating them beyond what the map offers (though I'd damn well want to be able to get them back when retiring old disciples!) or if the later, will need to heavily tweak and balance the skills so that the higher level ones aren't so insanely powerful when you can guarantee them.
Tutuapp 9apps Showbox
yes i think If he want to preserve a degree of randomness , he could just make it a chance thing on the Sunstone district
 
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Blackvision

Well-known member
Kickstarter Backer Community Member for 2 years
As for the sunstone thing, I agree with Blackvision that tying their production to a specific miracle building isn't ideal, as it forces people to use that miracle if they want decent skills.
Or even worse, have it as a purely economic building for crap disciples to generate resources and sunstones with by making them, levelling them, sunstoning them then retiring them :p

#PeaceCommandmentEconomyPowerhouse
 

RVWinkle

New member
Kickstarter Backer - Elder
It's definitely one of those things that's still on the table. Do you think this might be alleviated if the breadth of miracle options was extended in general (while still locking certain miracles to certain commandments)?
I think too many miracle options would be information overload. If anything, there should be fewer initial options than what we see now but supporting a broader set of disciple classes per individual location. Realistically, due to materials limitations and practical needs, you spend most of the game with only a few miracle sites in addition to the temple. I like how you get more options with a second commandment but currently that shows up too late in the game to be meaningful.

Maybe you could initially have access to only a couple different miracles, another handful as your disciples approach the second level, the temple becomes available when you're nearing disciple level 3, and then finally a second commandment and all of the miracle sites in the end game.
 

Reiteration6

New member
Starting with only a couple sounds really limiting. I probably wouldn't mind if those couple were the ideal ones for the commandment-specific class, but I can imagine other people not being so keen on that idea.

I do agree that unlocking the full suite of miracle buildings with commandment 2 is generally too late in the game to mean much, though.
 

Blackvision

Well-known member
Kickstarter Backer Community Member for 2 years
I know where you're coming from and agree with the principle, but it does cause issues - War, for example: they only need 1-2 stats for damage: might and cunning, and can pretty much do without cunning and if they pump up the damage, barely need defences.

Then there's Peace, which needs 2-3 *and* the defence stats. So they start off way behind.
 
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